NNS 21: The Sori Yanagi Appreciation Society

00:00:00: You know, Sorinagi's objects are very normal.

00:00:03: It is very functional and useful everyday stuff that just works And I think people use them without thinking about it so much.

00:00:13: We have a bit of an oversaturation with design in this world.

00:00:19: There seems to be like special attraction coming from practices that kind of like fly under the radar or who are good design without screaming design.

00:00:31: My instinct as an editor is to correct everything and make it better, in a way I felt an appreciation.

00:00:36: society was something which you invite everyone into but not really moderating them.

00:00:43: You're actually just creating a platform.

00:00:53: My name is Jonas Wanderl.

00:01:04: And I am Laura Breitschmidde.

00:01:15: Hello, Laura!

00:01:16: Welcome to this twenty-one episode of Not Only Beautiful...

00:01:20: You can't imagine what I dreamed about?

00:01:22: I dreamt from a spaghetti tongue.

00:01:25: that's no joke.

00:01:26: A

00:01:27: spaghetti tongue is the perfect word for a poem.

00:01:30: Maybe you'll learn later how this connection was created.

00:01:36: Today i brought with me my book in my hands, and I'll start with the description of the object.

00:01:43: The book is about as big like an A-Fifth, so it's fifteen centimeters wide and a little higher than twenty centimeters.

00:01:52: It's two centimeters thick and has almost two hundred and fifty six pages.

00:01:58: The circumference is from one side drawn cardboard.

00:02:04: Outside is white and inside brown something like a cardboard box, which you know from the mail.

00:02:12: On the outside it looks like an ordinary softcover but when I open this book i see a ring binding and that's how it is solved so that the back leaf of this ring binding is this round-shaped cardon.

00:02:28: This is how the cardboard falls back over the ring binding and runs on the front side.

00:02:34: The spiral is made of metal, with this cardboard there's an industrial touch to it.

00:02:42: As a step you'll find sixteen pages of red colored paper.

00:02:48: There are also printed instructions.

00:02:52: Then there will be more than two hundred pages... On the right side, there is a sentence.

00:03:00: And under this sentence you often see an image and it's printed in silver or black.

00:03:08: On the left side, then there are texts.

00:03:12: On each page we have something bigger... Attention, it's not the page number but maybe later.

00:03:21: And if I move forward to number ninety-eight... ...I see that at the end of this book there are eight pages in color again.

00:03:34: I close the book and on the back side you can see two numbered quotes.

00:03:38: They're marked with one single letter D. and once M. When I turn the book upside down, it's on my cover.

00:03:49: And here again they count one and two but not with quotes this time instead of pictures.

00:03:57: On top half there is a circular logo in black & white and below in the same size a baseball.

00:04:06: These two pictures separate the title which allows The Sorry Yanagi Appreciation Society.

00:04:13: Directly on German translation, it would mean as much as the Sorry Janagi Wertschätzungsgesellschaft.

00:04:21: And again such a case where English title just sounds better than the German

00:04:26: one?

00:04:27: Yes and this title is not only sound but he actually also tells many things about the program that takes place in this book.

00:04:35: It's all about the Wertschättzung des Werks von Sorry Janaji.

00:04:39: At this point of course it makes sense.

00:04:42: When I bring you and our listeners closer to these main protagonists, let me warn you.

00:04:48: This time it pulled into the research tunnel

00:04:54: again.

00:04:54: Did it pull in into the rabbit hole?

00:04:57: Then i'm

00:04:57: curious!

00:04:58: Soriyanagi was born in Tokyo in the year of nineteen hundred fifteen.

00:05:02: His father is soetsu Yanagi.

00:05:04: that this is important for him because he was the founder of a Japanese art work movement called Minjai.

00:05:12: And Minjae means as much as art of the people.

00:05:15: This movement was founded by Soetsu Yanagi in the nineteen twenties, together with some others and it is an anti-movement to modernism under industrialization that spread in Japan at any time.

00:05:31: He wanted this movement... the functional handwork-like ceramic textiles were established as their own art form.

00:05:40: A central thought was that beauty is not created by individual artists, but rather because of purposeful craftsmanship in service to daily use.

00:05:53: and so Yanagi founded Japan Folk Craft Museum in Tokyo some years later And Sori grew up in this field, and went on to travel around the circle of his father.

00:06:08: From nineteen thirty-six until nineteen forty years old he studied western painting at the Tokyo School of Fine Arts.

00:06:16: He also visited design lectures by a professor who had just returned from studying at the building house in Germany... ...and he priced the work among others.

00:06:28: by the Swiss architect Charles-Édouard Genre, better known under the name Le Corbusier.

00:06:35: Also a name that we meet again and again?

00:06:37: Yes also

00:06:38: one of these monoliths from the twentieth century!

00:06:42: And what role does he play now in the life of Surya Nagi?

00:06:45: He plays here an art side role.

00:06:47: so Suryanagi was totally fascinated with his work which he has just learned in this lecture.

00:06:52: But shortly after that, the fate of him played a small part in the maps.

00:06:58: In the core team of Le Corbusier there were two important people.

00:07:01: The long something in the shadow of this great master stood on one side his cousin Pierre Jean-Ré with whom he shared the architecture office and on the other hand designer Charlotte Perriot.

00:07:13: She had designed the furniture and also many inside buildings for Corbissie's architectural projects.

00:07:19: In nineteen thirty-seven Beria lost the Bureau of Le Corbusier and in nineteen forty she was asked by the Japanese government to work as a consultant for industrial design.

00:07:33: On July fifteenth, nineteen forty one day after the Nazis entered Paris Beria reached a cruise ship towards Japan.

00:07:43: Our main protagonist Soriyanagi, who was twenty-five years old at the time and worked in a company for product design in Tokyo, became an assistant and dole matcher.

00:07:55: He helped her during her lectures to school, visited production cities and cultural institutions... ...and he quickly became known with his father Soetsu Yanagi as well.

00:08:07: Soriyyanagi saw this meeting Like Peria, her modernist ideas with the craftsmanship and technique of his father showed it to him.

00:08:17: And up until then he might have considered the Minje movement as something old and maybe also not quite seen how this potential was generally implemented.

00:08:29: But when he saw that everything looked at Peria somehow clicked on him.

00:08:33: However, the cooperation with Perian came to an end as the Second World War broke out in the Pacific.

00:08:41: Through the attack on Pearl Harbor, Japan officially entered Nazi Germany's side of the war in December, and of course Perian was forced to leave Japan as a Frenchman .

00:08:55: A normal trip home was impossible under these circumstances back then in Indochina, before they could move to France.

00:09:05: In

00:09:05: Indochinia, which is almost today's country like Vietnam, Laos and Cambodia was a part of the French colonial kingdom

00:09:13: at that time?

00:09:14: Exactly!

00:09:14: And this colonial kingdom broke apart shortly after World War II but as a period it was still Indochini.

00:09:23: Soriyanagi was also killed by the Second World War.

00:09:26: He was taken into the military and spent a few years in the Philippines.

00:09:32: The legend says that he even wrote a book of Le Corbusier with his own

00:09:37: hand.

00:09:37: Another hero's story from Corbisier?

00:09:39: Yes,

00:09:40: you can read it as well.

00:09:42: He pops up everywhere again.

00:09:44: just a couple of years after this war... In nineteen fifty-two Yanagi opened his own design studio in Tokyo, the Yanagi Industrial Design Institute.

00:09:54: There he developed countless objects and furniture in various sizes and materials such as chairs, kitchen utensils, panes, lights, stools, children's toys, subway stations, cars or even motorcycles.

00:10:09: He has so many things... designed and produced in his life, I try to reduce myself on the minimum.

00:10:19: And take a few corner points.

00:10:22: So in nineteen fifty-four it was for the Elephantstool, so an artificial hawker with three legs that you can google here .

00:10:29: And this will be found right away.

00:10:30: In nineteen fifty six he then followed his probably known object The Butterfly Chair.

00:10:37: These are two symmetrical elements which are made of bent rosewood from clay Very symmetrically, very simple to assemble.

00:10:46: But it became an icon of design history.

00:10:50: In nineteen sixty-four the Olympic torch for the games in Tokyo.

00:10:55: And in nineteen seventy he then had a big project.

00:10:59: It is a footbridge bridge and the equipment for U-Bahn stops in Japan city Yokohama.

00:11:08: In seventeen ninety seven he was who was the successor of his father and then led Japan Folk Crafts Museum in Tokyo.

00:11:16: He focused mainly on making the Minjae aesthetic modern and new to life.

00:11:23: Then he was a curator, curator at this museum for thirty years as well as another furniture and other objects in his institute.

00:11:33: In two thousand and eleven Soriyanagi died in the age of ninety-six.

00:11:39: So

00:11:40: you can say that Surya Nagy, for one of the two greatest influences in his life and work.

00:11:46: Exactly!

00:11:46: On the other hand this Minjay Erbe from his father and the influence on modernism through his encounter with Charlotte Perion was a kind bridge between tradition Modern thought, but also between Western and Japanese thinking.

00:12:04: And in this field of tension he created a lot of objects

00:12:10: that correspond to these values.

00:12:12: Today he is producing the Swiss furniture manufacturer Vittra, one of his works.

00:12:17: The everyday activities around him are mainly found in Japan as well as in affordable shopping malls at totally different prices.

00:12:25: Yes, and maybe one more quote to finish that these thoughts can be summarized.

00:12:30: The fundamental problem is most products are produced for sale but not for

00:12:38: use.

00:12:38: Thank you very much for this brief report by Sori Yanagis Leben!

00:12:42: We will also talk about

00:12:43: the book later on... Yes in any case I told you that Yanagi had a long and productive life.

00:12:50: It is striking that there was no significant English-speaking standard work in Yanagi for a long time.

00:13:00: And Michael Marriott and Duncan Riches followed the two publishers' ambitions to fill these gaps.

00:13:04: Michael Marridt, who is a product designer, lives today and works in London.

00:13:08: He designs furniture and objects but also exhibitions as well as publications.

00:13:13: His furniture are among other things from S&P, a British furniture company.

00:13:19: And with him, this company S.C.P also works for Duncan Riches the other publisher and he is there as an online editor.

00:13:26: He writes portraits about designers or concepts.

00:13:30: Thanks to that he's the Creative Director of Shortage Design Week and recently he founded Unit D or United which is a large garage gallery.

00:13:41: The everyday objects of the British designer show all at prices under thirty pounds.

00:13:48: And that is also a bridge back to our protagonist, Soriyanagi.

00:13:53: Duncan and Michael have been friends for years now as well as fans of Soriyannagi's work.

00:14:00: That was how they came up with the idea to publish their first monograph in English.

00:14:06: Under a classic monograph, however I understand something slightly different.

00:14:10: That's right!

00:14:11: This one is actually relatively small and rather simple.

00:14:14: The idea was to orchestrate a kind of collective praise on the objects by Yanagi.

00:14:20: They wrote people from their network and these prayers accompanied them to name their sorry Yanagi favorite object from an anecdote.

00:14:30: And so almost a hundred articles came together and were published in this book that we have here on the

00:14:38: table.".

00:14:38: If

00:14:38: you know yourself a little bit about Londoner design, then one or more names are recognized.

00:14:44: One of them is for example Jasper Morrison who also wrote the foreword.

00:14:47: Exactly,

00:14:48: I also recognized a few well-known names.

00:14:51: On the one hand Eva Kellenberger is a Swiss graphic designer who has been working in England for quite some time now and then.

00:15:00: I met her at an internship in London twenty years ago with Graphic Thought Facility This graphic that works there, Hugh Morgan also wrote a text in it which touched me very much.

00:15:11: A childhood memory and so you actually read through these almost hundred articles.

00:15:18: It's

00:15:18: always nice to hear when your own life is... a certain form of connection to the books that we have discussed here.

00:15:25: We met with the two publisher-onlines on a conversation, and along with it was also the Swiss graphic designer Urs Leeney.

00:15:33: He worked in duo with Lex Trüb for five years now and at this time he founded the exhibition room Corner College in Zurich as well.

00:15:48: Today, however, one day he is suffering from his complaint.

00:16:06: Today we have three guests, Michael Marriott at Uncle Rich's and Urs Leni.

00:16:11: We're going to talk about a book called The Sorry Yanagi Appreciation Society.

00:16:16: And one of the starting points for this project was a remark from fellow designer Jasper Morrison, about sorry Yanagi.

00:16:24: it's the best designer you've never heard off when?

00:16:28: Was there moment where these observations turned into an idea to create the appreciation society than exhibition and also a book which we have in front us?

00:16:40: The reason the book exists is because one of Duncan's many roles beyond their CP as a kind of strategic thinker, it was with company that has showroom here in London in Shoreditch called Tokyo Bike.

00:16:58: It's Japanese Tokyo based urban bicycle companies make very nice urban bicycles to deal.

00:17:07: selling bicycles is a slightly seasonal trade.

00:17:11: They also sell small Japanese homewares in the shop and they inevitably have a selection of Soriyanagi's kitchenware, as well.

00:17:21: And because their in Shoreditch, they wanted to take part in Shordish Design Week Because Tokyo Bikes Is Also A Very Design-Led Business On Product Range.

00:17:33: So They Asked Duncan To Have Look At The Idea Of doing something and maybe doing a Suryanagi exhibition or something.

00:17:43: And then Duncan brought me in to work on it, you know the obvious thing was to do a Soryanagi show In The Shop.

00:17:52: I'm also big fan of Surya Nagin.

00:17:54: i felt like this would be timely.

00:17:57: as Jasper's quote suggests he is not overly appreciated.

00:18:02: My concern was that this little exhibition we would do, essentially be a display of Sory and Argy's products arranged in the shop window or something.

00:18:11: And it could easily get lost into sort-of... ...the busyness of Shoreditch & Design Weeken In A Bicycle Shop!

00:18:19: I suggested they needed more to frame it and expand beyond their shop windows.

00:18:26: So i propose that we start an Appreciation Society as quite a sort of light-hearted idea, but it quite quickly became more serious than what I first suggested.

00:18:39: And whilst talking with enthusiasm about him and the idea of using this phrase really to frame the exhibition that we should do a book as well because...I don't think i've ever seen a book about him in English!

00:18:55: After that meeting and discussion You know, to see if there was anything and it's never been anything published outside of Japan.

00:19:02: That felt like really shocking And still does feel quite shocking when I think that we're all very proud Of the fact that we've made The world's first non-Japanese publication on Sorry and Argy.

00:19:13: Can

00:19:13: i just clarify as well?

00:19:15: Um...I mean this is supposed To be a kind of pamphlet and Michael got really carried away.

00:19:20: I mean thats Really what actually happened because

00:19:23: I couldn't confirm that.

00:19:26: The first time Michael said, yeah it's going to be simple like sixteen pages and you know

00:19:32: kind of grew Yeah.

00:19:32: but i think in a way that reflects two things.

00:19:35: It reflects one the appreciation out there for Sorry Anarchy But also the appreciation For Michael as well because Michael has got a huge network Of people And then he asked One person Then another person.

00:19:48: Maybe they'll ask them Before we know it, We had sort of over a hundred contributions.

00:19:53: The interesting thing to a certain extent as well is It's quite hard To get some Of the objects that they sell in Tokyo bike In London because its actually not That easy... ...to Get Some of the really nice Japanese things.

00:20:03: And Japanese companies are Quite often Not that open to selling stuff abroad.

00:20:08: I think They might have changed slightly in recent years Because of the yen Actually but You Know so even Tokyo Bike who Have this head office in Japan They find it hard sometimes To get their manufacturers to kind of do Things.

00:20:18: So The fact that they had quite a nice selection of the Sorianargui objects all in one place is, it's quite rare thing in London actually.

00:20:26: And just to think about the Appreciation Society I think both Michael and I really enjoy their company called Old Hall.

00:20:33: They made sort of stainless steel kitchenware you know sort of kettles or so on.

00:20:39: there were quite big post-war in Britain A day no longer existence.

00:20:43: i think they went out business probably in the seventies or the eighties but not an appreciation site, but does have a kind of collectors group.

00:20:50: But they need to show their old-haul items.

00:20:55: and Michael and I had seen this... We'd been talking about it.

00:20:59: so think little bit before we did the project.

00:21:02: Both Mike and I are naturally quite positive on things that were optimistic when you created Appreciation Site.

00:21:08: It's very hard for people to be negative because your just being open handed.

00:21:16: So I think that was really important to us.

00:21:18: It creates, of course an intrinsic motivation because you already have a hundred people that are fascinated before the book even comes out right?

00:21:28: it's not one person telling the world hey i found this super nice designer but already you have a group of people claiming that

00:21:36: yeah i wonder what the German is there a german word for it

00:21:40: or something?

00:21:49: And I don't know if there's anything like appreciation societies in Japan.

00:21:54: It's interesting when you think about it, the level of vinyl appreciation that we get from Japan and the smallish niche or genre of music will be fanatical collectors who have things made with a back garden Somewhere southeast London in.

00:22:13: you know, nineteen seventy six and only You know thirty copies were pressed but they're probably all in Japan now.

00:22:21: But um I think that one of the interesting things is that?

00:22:25: You know sorry Nargis objects are sold in regular kitchenware stores or hardware stores In japan.

00:22:31: They very normal people have them and use them without knowing The author with your first name And I think that's part of the success of his objects, they can survive in any environment.

00:22:42: They don't shout.

00:22:44: I'm designed by a designer made by Alessi with these sort of big branding operations behind them and slightly pop star designer status.

00:22:55: There is none around Sorinagi Even though two of his stools are made by Vitra.

00:23:02: But the kitchenware is much more so.

00:23:05: You know, it just lives in kitchen drawers and gets pulled out when you need what you need And... It's very functional Very useful everyday stuff that just works So well!

00:23:16: And-and Is just intrinsically kind of beautiful And beautifully detailed Beautifully made Beautifully thought through.

00:23:23: They've just worked exceptionally Well.

00:23:26: I think people Just use them without thinking about it.

00:23:30: That much

00:23:31: Yeah, I mean maybe also just this thought of a democratic way of appreciating fits the Democratic Way of distributing his work.

00:23:43: In the book you talk about another designer which lived at that same time in Italy.

00:23:49: to show this really silent.

00:23:52: Sorry, you used a really loud counterfeit because it's so normal.

00:23:57: You need something louts to show the silence that next to it right?

00:24:02: I found them are fascinating comparison.

00:24:04: there were so many parallels in their professional lives and personal life too.

00:24:10: actually on researching it they both came out of the military during the Second World War.

00:24:18: Their practice is a key moment as their countries were rebuilding after the war.

00:24:23: They're both countries that embraced new technology, they've both embraced modernism as nations and you know... And there was sort of part of bigger machine moving forward and rebuilding and building new economies.

00:24:40: but this interesting thing about them took such different paths.

00:24:44: perhaps partly it's cultural I think.

00:24:47: But then, you know the most famous Japanese furniture designer of slightly later generations probably Fira Kuramata who's much more like Foxass.

00:24:58: And I think Yonagi was so deeply rooted in his background with his father and the Ming game movement and its appreciation for all those objects that set a scene.

00:25:10: i think about the way that he was going to make things, and make things that would be appreciated.

00:25:20: Used and loved whereas Satsi's things are very much there to be looked at and collected by museums or collectors rather than you know tossed in-and out of kitchen drawers.

00:25:34: I mean In a way Yanagi also building bridges right between Japanese and European American societies also designing objects that are not usually used in Japan so much.

00:25:49: And, In a way this book is also transfer of something or books exists but they don't exist here.

00:25:59: What's special about the view you offer now as non-Japanese to western public?

00:26:07: I think it It is genuinely about an appreciation and reviewing or unveiling of him as someone who has been quite hidden relative to a lot of designers, who have much more household names.

00:26:27: Perhaps the most obvious one would be Philip Stark or something who pioneered the idea of designer-as-pop staff And in a way that's everything wrong with design.

00:26:39: It makes it even more apparent and critical that we learn from Soriyanagi's way of working, integrate into our ways as an industry.

00:26:54: It gives longevity to objects.

00:26:56: they will last forever, stylistically and functionally.

00:26:59: I don't think you can say about so many designers work.

00:27:05: When you made the book or planning the book, did you have in mind a specific audience for whom you made it?

00:27:11: I don't think we had a specific goal.

00:27:13: It was beyond the fact that there should be an English-language book about him... ...it just felt wrong that didn't already exist.. ..I couldn't believe that wasn't a giant Biden monograph on him!

00:27:26: Another brilliant graphic designer who's also based in Switzerland John Haers designed by the monograph on Chirica Amata, that's quite an elaborate and beautiful book.

00:27:37: We definitely decided it was not what we were going to try do—that wasn't our role when we didn't have the means for doing this.

00:27:44: Getting photographic rights or image rights is complicated so we had to kind of make ourselves a bit DIY-ed with a lot of clever thinking from Ursulaini to assist along its path.

00:27:59: I think there was a sort of thought, well maybe this might prompt you know A. Fyden or a big town publisher to do the right thing by him and make it as sort of a proper monograph that really documents his whole life and his whole works and contextualizes with family life and father and cultural aspects.

00:28:20: doing what he's been doing in Japan is linked with Charlotte Perior.

00:28:24: It's fascinating story i think prompted this body of work that he made.

00:28:55: really think too much about who is going to be the audience, or I...I think if it somehow makes sense in my brain then i hope that there's like maybe a broader interest.

00:29:07: In this topic as well and with Sorya Nagi was definitely the case that somehow I really got into him And My Kitchen Is also slowly filling up With things!

00:29:19: The book from his father and bought A Japanese Book Monograph really like that he kind of designed himself.

00:29:27: So for me it was, yeah a big learning curve in this whole thing and I think somehow why i do all the press.

00:29:36: what fascinates me about the whole thing is with each project... It's not just by researching or reading on Wikipedia but to working on images, cropping the image or retracing a pair of Forks or something you get closer practice of somebody.

00:29:54: and yeah, for me this was amazing to have this opportunity to do that in this project.

00:30:01: When you were making the book?

00:30:01: And I just want to be really clear even when we had The Contributions early on where we had a massive amount of contributions You know i was very doubtful Of the validity of it as a book but actually found myself sort of In uh...in A Very Hot Stone Room in Tuscany trying To Edit a Hundred Entries.

00:30:23: At that stage, I felt we needed something much tighter.

00:30:28: The number of reflections was maybe too much for a tight book and when it's going through the editing process... ...I had to do some mental gymnastics because I created A system where I sort of selected the ones that i thought were more valid and.

00:30:48: Wanted to have a kind as the balance between a certain type event tree some other than very much memory based on.

00:30:54: some of them are more academic, some with him or kinda much brief uh... And i always felt like we've got way too many and this is just it's sort of a sprawling thing.

00:31:03: makes no sense in the weight ice out that this gymnastics idea my head was.

00:31:08: i said actually that's not the spirit of an appreciation.

00:31:12: society from editing point-of view actually have to do a really light touch on this.

00:31:18: So I need leave all these idiosyncrasies, some errors or incorrect grammar and things that are in entries because my instinct as editor is correct everything into make it better.

00:31:33: In way i felt an appreciated society something which you invite Everyone in and you're not really moderating them.

00:31:42: You're actually just creating a platform for them.

00:31:45: And it really took me some time over a few days to kind of get my head around.

00:31:48: this is an idea Because I think mainstream was naturally, too say we need something much more coherent.

00:31:55: But then yeah once i've done that wants us or let go of the answer that Actually We Need To So preserve the sanctity of, or of the entries and we actually need to treat it like a proper appreciation.

00:32:07: I think then i was more able To understand as project but because Actually A lot Of The Entries are quite emotional More so than you'd expect You know for someone talking about a kettle Or some tongs That actually really affected me And It's actually effected things I've done since Like setting up unit D. This dissents that Great design when it's in people's hands, you know every day.

00:32:32: and what if when it touches peoples lives In a kind of a so very normal way an everyday way.

00:32:38: It has much more power.

00:32:40: And I was really struck by that where we did the project.

00:32:45: or i think Now looking back on there um Really pleased at week?

00:32:50: We can't have did that.

00:32:50: we kind of let it breathe as a thing Um, and I think is to kind of.

00:32:54: but well You Can Kind Of Dip Into You know, you could just read three entries and then leave it for three weeks.

00:33:00: And pop in an read another one... I think they're all valid!

00:33:03: There's something really special about that.

00:33:04: but so i felt there was a learning process For me as editor to accept this book if u like But having the idea of appreciation society at its core It creates a value system that really helped us.

00:33:17: You were talking about the moment when you have everything, but first before that is send it out.

00:33:23: so its also selection in way of who's valid or not to talk about?

00:33:28: We would originally think we had maybe twenty entries and Michael... is a very friendly person, maybe over-friendly sometimes.

00:33:37: And actually the warmth of response... ...is actually a reflection on Michael and Michael's practice in the way he works which is Michael was a very open spirited person.. ..and he's always very generous with his time….

00:33:51: …and talks to everyone –sometimes too much– but that in a way it why people responded so warmly.

00:33:58: because Michael asked them and said look we're doing this live project And often if you're trying to get lots of people do something, You spend weeks and weeks chasing people.

00:34:08: I think actually something about the project where Michael asked me they were very quick to respond.

00:34:14: in a way there's an element which was quite easy thing for response too...you have a bowl or anything like that but also allowing people give a response that they would want.

00:34:28: Like I said, there's very serious academic pieces of writing in the book but then someone you know writes a poem about how they love something and i like that variety.

00:34:37: But in terms of how we worked it out once Michael had asked everyone he was like We've got all these contributions.

00:34:42: so That editing stage It Was A question Of saying who do we bring In And Who Do We Take Out?

00:34:48: But I think at The end we actually only took out kind of three or two Or Three Michael.

00:34:52: it was Very small number wasn't it?

00:34:55: how much paper we use and you know, how many pages the book's going to have.

00:35:00: There was a certain amount of that logistical stuff that demanded that we needed to take a few out at the end but it was hard to figure out because there wasn't this requirement that they all academic high quality pieces of journalism or academic text or anything on their whole very more personal than on him or his objects.

00:35:25: So, yeah it was quite difficult to take people out

00:35:28: and your own contribution is a discussion right between Duncan and Michael.

00:35:35: you don't mention your own favorite piece of design by Sorry Anagi can you declare that here in the podcast?

00:35:43: And there's one thing I use every day which this is Kettle Which i think has become Not quite invisible.

00:35:50: I'm much less conscious of using his kettle because i use it every day, and i love it but i think probably what tops it slightly as a piece of design is his perforated tongs which i don't use everyday ,but i use very regularly .I dont know if its the difference in not using them everyday.

00:36:07: each time i pull out my pot to turn something over into a pan or put on a sander bolt im struck by how perfect they are.

00:36:17: Well we've had an argument, a ongoing argument about the tongs because there's obviously the perforated and non-perforated tongs.

00:36:26: So I'm an advocate for the non-Perforated whereas Michael thinks that the Perforated Tongues are superior!

00:36:34: I mean i think Michael is right... ...that The Perforaded Tongues Are Actually More Functional but the non-perforated tongs are more beautiful.

00:36:43: So I'm going to go for the slightly more beautiful tong as my object, But i think it's one of those situations.

00:36:49: there is many many tongs in the world... ...but whatever Tong you've used beforehand You'll never use a better Tong than Sorry Anongi's one.

00:36:58: It's The End Of Tongs.

00:37:00: There Is No More Tongs After His.

00:37:03: That's My Feeling.

00:37:04: Yeah I am here just desperately trying To Come Up With A Good Answer.

00:37:10: I mean, i have like a bunch of balls and half the tongs.

00:37:13: And i have a butter knife...I would say that i appreciate his book about his show still the most!

00:37:21: As a designer's monograph ,i find it quite fascinating somehow That its such crazy accumulation from tiny to huge The way he collages them together, basically the first hundred pages or something.

00:37:38: It's just images and then... He would put a number to it.

00:37:42: in an indian you'll have an index.

00:37:44: Just see from vehicles to buildings To machines Kitchenware Olympic torches Bird cages lamps And this whole kind of universe I think is so fascinating.

00:38:00: I guess it's a little bit reflected also by his store in Tokyo that is still accessible.

00:38:09: I've never been there, unfortunately but the people who go they just say you enter this place and its really dense.

00:38:17: And somebody whose produced so much during life as designer This kind of like really fascinates me.

00:38:23: There are many things he designed.

00:38:27: think twice if a designer was behind this or not, so my pick is the book.

00:38:31: Now listening to you it could give the impression that he was designers' designer like on one hand.

00:38:37: um that the simplicity of also his amazing work or genius is not spotted in The Extraordinary It's Like In The Simplicity.

00:38:45: What Makes His Work So Fascinating For Designers?

00:38:48: I just find it interesting That we have A bit Of An Oversaturation With Design And This World There seems to be like a special attraction coming from practices that kind of fly under the radar, or who are good design without screaming design.

00:39:08: So I guess... That speaks to a certain audience for sure!

00:39:11: The whole thing that Muchi was trying to do with asking big names but then not putting their name?

00:39:17: Yeah There's probably something in there, you know that... ...there is a specific type of designer who anyway wants design but then also doesn't want it to be labelled like all the time or he doesn't wanna have this brand

00:39:28: embossed

00:39:30: and be confronted with it constantly.

00:39:33: I guess i count myself through these groups.

00:39:35: so.. I guess theres an interesting design conundrum hidden somewhere.

00:39:42: for me its really his work as the classic sort-of form Function.

00:39:48: and then the materials, you know this object function incredibly.

00:39:52: The materials are always beautiful.

00:39:53: to finish is a correct.

00:39:54: but I think actually there's something going on in the entry sixty nine which was that one which has got all the silhouettes and it says so no its page of Japanese characters.

00:40:04: i think actually There's something about it though.

00:40:06: his objects the shape off them if very character full do understand what means almost like as objects are small characters.

00:40:15: he does that In some way, without making it kind of kitsch.

00:40:18: The kettle is a very characterful shape but its not kitsch.

00:40:22: He just treads that line where he gets the form function materiality correct But his objects are kinda imbued with personality.

00:40:31: Without being too loud.

00:40:33: I don't know how to describe this.

00:40:35: If you look at the silo extra like that, they aren't just normal objects.

00:40:39: You know there are.

00:40:39: They do have some kind of special shape or form.

00:40:43: So I think he just gets it right.

00:40:45: i think He Just Gets Designed Right.

00:40:47: in a Kind Of There's Definitely A Universality Which Is Probably Something To Do With The Mengi Movement His Upbringing.

00:40:54: And What Do We All Think About Great Design?

00:40:56: what is great design?

00:40:57: It There Is something That we Don'T Understand.

00:41:01: Its A Bit Like Wittgenstein Saying That Languages the kind of boundary, what we understand.

00:41:06: I think there's something about great design is somewhere at the boundary or what we actually understand.

00:41:11: that stuff as well.

00:41:13: it's like his their great characters without shouting too loudly in some sort way i don't know how to describe it because they get something out the hands.

00:41:22: you know, there's maybe something that is objects in the hand are particularly they sort of come alive especially design objects.

00:41:30: You've got to touch them and feel them and fill with a weight of them field finishes.

00:41:34: And I think after one other problems That we have in our modern context Is everyone looks at things obviously more now because you can see everything online or Instagram whatever it is but But sense of actually touching things We're losing slightly sorry and I'll be objects incredible to touch and that is maybe why people love them so much, you know because the relationship we have with something but your touch a lot.

00:42:00: Or do use or at all of some things goes beyond what it looks like.

00:42:05: yes for me be that's also one off the reasons why depreciation society couldn't stay.

00:42:10: website needed become book uh... that people can touch on flip through in.

00:42:16: So yeah, maybe I want to take the turn also to talk a bit about The Design of the Book as we have Urs here which is... ...the publisher but also The Designer Of The Book.

00:42:25: and As We Were Getting In Touch Urs said Yeah But i don't know if I Have so much To Say About The Design Of The book Because Yeah Didn't Do So Much.

00:42:35: And First I Thought Okay There's Always Something To Say.

00:42:38: Also It Really Fits in A Way The Work Of Soryanagi that it looks like nothing has been done.

00:42:46: Did you also have the feeling to do a book where you're not seen as a designer too much?

00:42:52: No, I mean this is my preferred scenario... ...I guess!

00:42:58: And I worked on it a lot and did all with a lot of joy.

00:43:04: everything came really naturally so.

00:43:07: That's one of the advantages of working for a roller-press is that together with Michael and Duncan, we just took most of decisions collectively.

00:43:19: We had a bunch of meetings.

00:43:20: I remember when my second child was just born... ...I wasn't walking around but there were kids on my body and video calling And it always fell into like an interesting period in life.

00:43:34: somehow It gave me something between sleepless nights and whatever you know.

00:43:39: it was just like a really nice project to work on.

00:43:42: I mean, i took a bunch of decisions with every book but in terms of materiality the cover material is food packaging materials same stuff we would find on a Kellogg's box.

00:43:57: then The Viro is an altered Gyanogis preferred material And spend time on images this time because That's just always a bit of a challenge when you work with hundred different contributions, hundred different types of images.

00:44:12: Somebody has a phone somebody has a Canon camera like so he had to find the way too little bit.

00:44:19: get them together in order that they would also fit together.

00:44:23: aesthetically I would say for a roller-press book it is maybe even more fancy than usual stuff because its silver and two different rasters.

00:44:32: There was something i never did before.

00:44:35: I also don't know if it's a thing in graphic design or printing, but at one point i just thought like yeah let's use the newspaper raster for the black and just regular one for the silver to see what happens.

00:44:47: And then they spent quite some time cropping objects so that they would sit on the background hoping that it would lend the object down the page.

00:44:58: maybe materiality because many of these things are made from metal, I guess that kind of worked for me.

00:45:07: And then yeah apart from that i think there's really two or three decisions and the whole thing kinda like made itself.

00:45:14: so each contributor send you an image with a text?

00:45:18: Or did you add some images?

00:45:20: who said they were browsing through the catalogue.

00:45:22: mostly contributors sent it in and then With some contributions we little bit had to improvise or like ad images.

00:45:33: Thirty percent of all contributions are dealing with this kettle.

00:45:37: I do show these kettle differently, some didn't have an image but there was still something we wanted to show.

00:45:44: so maybe scanned the image or found it.

00:45:47: Lots of images also kind of like author.

00:45:50: less than that because most of them were just from Amazon ordering pages.

00:45:54: Just pack shots which wasn't clear in the end who made them?

00:45:59: But thanks for this restoration... they were good enough to be used.

00:46:03: and then some of the images Michael had to take like five times at home because we said, can you not have another image off the ladle or something?

00:46:10: Like this.

00:46:11: And so it was a bit of a mix but most of the pictures came from people who also contributed the text.

00:46:18: I mean i just want say Urs did an incredible job with graphic design.

00:46:22: actually stood Michael's eye along that way.

00:46:27: when you do a book is the publisher too.

00:46:31: I think that whole project and i think this really came from Michael, it was like how do we make The Best Book about sorry Inagi?

00:46:39: And i think that informed a lot of decisions because i've worked on other books before you know for bigger brands with people like Fyden or so one...and thats often not the thing that is prioritized when making your book.

00:46:50: its not necessarily How Do We Make The Best Books?

00:46:53: there's often a lot complications.

00:46:55: So to certain extent theres alot passion in his projects.

00:46:58: but I think all the way along, we were able to make decisions.

00:47:03: To say how do we elevate this?

00:47:05: To make it even better and i think that's a really beautiful thing.

00:47:08: you don't often get opportunities to sort of do that particularly with the images was just mentioned.

00:47:14: You know We actually did the first edition before we got to The Final One And...we understood That It Just Didn't Look Quite Right!

00:47:21: And That Sort Of Double Rasterization Process That Was Did....It Was Incredible.

00:47:26: um and Michael & I would not have thought about at All.

00:47:29: I think in that way, we could always just be saying how do you make it better rather than there's a compromise here or whatever?

00:47:37: Or if we had problems like the images were a bit boring.

00:47:39: We can find a way of making them better.

00:47:41: The final result is something very special but its because we are able to make positive decisions every time.

00:47:49: One thing about this project and i think this came from Michael On any projects you should work on You should shoot for the stars.

00:47:59: It's a lesson, because we could have just easily cut corners to get it done.

00:48:04: But I think actually if you cannot do that... You sometimes just get much better result!

00:48:09: Now you mentioned that you also work with other publishing houses?

00:48:12: How came that?

00:48:13: Roller Press was the one publishing at the

00:48:15: end?!

00:48:16: Yeah i was trying to find an email but my memory is that when on shopping spree to Milan..I came back with a lot of Michael Married objects.

00:48:28: probably people on the train thought like, who is this guy?

00:48:32: I had a broom and a stool.

00:48:33: And a lamp that has a pocket.

00:48:36: it looked like a cleaner basically Like any half.

00:48:38: but i remember there was an email after saying yeah This project would you be up for publishing?

00:48:46: It's...I kind of remembered at the name.

00:48:48: Soryo Nagi was mentioned in There..and I remember myself googling his name Embarrassed and then learning Yeah, and I guess it went from there.

00:48:59: And also remember what Duncan said earlier.

00:49:01: that was supposed to be like a pamphlet or something.

00:49:05: the way you asked me?

00:49:05: It's like yeah well... You know something in the sixteen pages stapled!

00:49:09: And then he grew from there....and yeah i guess that's how came to happen.

00:49:16: so for Roller Press..I can just say somehow this is My my catalog, if you will is now not really focused on product design.

00:49:29: But this is maybe one of the first publications that goes a little bit in this direction.

00:49:35: but I just really enjoy it as Rollo doesn't have any strict guidelines or what fits him and whatnot.

00:49:43: so It's always based On The interest Of people involved And everybody involved sees some certain potential In project.

00:49:53: then we do What I was thinking in preparation of this podcast, what i also would like to mention is that it's self-published and it's also self financed.

00:50:03: And somehow...I think there's a topic especially on the context of the most beautiful swiss books which are often a bit...I don't know just being Switzerland where they have money but sometimes people do not really talk about it more like in terms of book production or any kind of cultural production and money.

00:50:22: Yeah, It's an important... I mean if you don't have a deal come do anything so we have to find somewhere.

00:50:28: So In this case We came up with the very unbureaucratic way of financing it.

00:50:35: i just kinda designed this thing And had concept and asked the printer how much is gonna cost?

00:50:42: Costs on so much!

00:50:43: So which was split by three pre-finance it from our own pocket money and then just waited a couple of months for the money to come back.

00:50:52: And we didn't file any funding applications, there's no logos that had put.

00:50:58: all the decisions were taken by us.

00:51:00: so me this is still also like really yeah very valid way of operating.

00:51:08: I'm kind of proud.

00:51:09: let this year in The Most Beautiful Swiss Books is also self-financed and there's a bit of... you can just do things maybe like, little differently still if your.

00:51:23: yeah I don't know.

00:51:23: If you have small group that talks to each other understands it shorter And thinks in similar way and tries to do the same thing Like what Duncan said trying to do besting.

00:51:34: There will be an argument for this kind of autonomy when you really deal with them on their own.

00:51:41: I guess it also fits this appreciation society, right?

00:51:45: It's really bottom-up in a way and just group of people who come together.

00:51:50: And think that is good idea to make the book!

00:51:52: Of course you have all capacities... To create your own publisher or designer or editor without waiting.

00:52:02: You can take these energy then start working on them.

00:52:06: sometimes something that happens with books because you're waiting for funding money and while waiting, you lose the energy in the start.

00:52:16: I still have a question... Are deferred projects planned?

00:52:19: Do you travel to Japan together or will open it up to public ?

00:52:24: We are going do second edition when i finally finished doing the new preface which is on me.

00:52:29: but actually there's very nice store here in London called Labour & Wait And they are kind of like a homeware sort of domestic hardware store, if you'd like.

00:52:41: The gentleman who runs them the guy called Simon.

00:52:43: he's actually I think it was the first person to sell Suryanagi import Suryyanagi products here in the UK and he wholesales from various other people... ...and i actually saw him about a month ago!

00:52:55: They've opened a new store in Covent Garden.. ..and we're going do a second edition.

00:52:59: He had already said before that he would be interested doing another event.

00:53:03: so The dream scenario would be we publish a second edition, and then we convene the society again in Covent Garden.

00:53:11: And we do maybe talk or have something quite fun.

00:53:14: but also there were some Swiss people who came over to Unit D and they said that love to have us in Switzerland.

00:53:19: But just say our dreams should be a trip to Japan you know?

00:53:24: That it should be are final goal.

00:53:27: So maybe we can create the Japanese division of this appreciation society or something.

00:53:32: I'm not quite sure, but... We should definitely do some things in a coming year especially with The Second Edition.

00:53:37: You mentioned This Second Edition?

00:53:39: Some publishers plan to change things and some say no.

00:53:43: they produce exactly the same.

00:53:45: The spiral binding suggests that more appreciators could be added.

00:53:51: will there be more contributions In The Second edition Or is There Other Things That you Want To Change?

00:53:56: The few second editions I've done so far with RolloPress, the goal is always to plant like some kind of Easter egg that it actually motivates.

00:54:07: people who have their first edition also buy a second edition just because there's something in here.

00:54:12: That isn't even the first one but... I'm gonna change two small things.

00:54:17: i guess we'll adapt the preface a little bit Because this is outdated.

00:54:21: It was also dated summer twenty-four.

00:54:24: But then, I think the whole content stays the same.

00:54:26: And it's only thing that somehow led to a bunch of funny discussions.

00:54:31: So question like what is this number?

00:54:33: Is this pagination or something else?

00:54:34: Yeah... It's gonna stay the same!

00:54:36: I think Urs said when we talked about it he feels there still kind-of demand for The Book and thats why its worth doing the second edition.. ..and i've been running the shop where they sell directly and had someone over Christmas order six in Boulder, Colorado.

00:54:51: And then I've also had messages from people in Australia and far-flung places around the world.

00:54:57: One of things that has always been delighted about this is it's got out there.

00:55:02: so we're spreading appreciation for Inagi far and wide.

00:55:07: There are still some appreciations to be done.

00:55:10: That was a final point when they did their project.

00:55:17: It was about showing appreciation for Soriyanagi, but I think both Michael and I are appreciators of things.

00:55:23: And we want to spread the idea of appreciation as a notion in itself.

00:55:29: We should just keep doing that... ...as

00:55:31: well."

00:55:36: and they don't want to explain it, but rather share something with

00:55:45: us.

00:55:45: And that's why I'm not surprised by the fact that this book was published in such a positive

00:55:59: way.".

00:55:59: It has nothing more to say than a collection of moments and memories.

00:56:05: Yes, it transports this very personal view that is not only in the system where these publications come from.

00:56:11: In the conversation I felt this intrinsic interest, this energy very strongly And yes those positive energies which were also very inspiring.

00:56:21: Yes absolutely!

00:56:21: We talked about them during our conversations as well.

00:56:24: It was all about longevity, i.e.

00:56:27: the longevity of Janakis objects German saying, good age.

00:56:32: And then we thought that this mechanism also applies to books.

00:56:35: when form and content are in tune with each other they age slower too.

00:56:40: They stay longer currently.

00:56:42: so there is a timeless aspect.

00:56:43: It will be proven as well.

00:56:46: the three already plan for one second location.

00:56:49: maybe you have to say something about it One part of the first location.

00:56:53: at a massive fire in the warehouse of the Amsterdam sales of Rollopress The flame fell to the victim But otherwise the publication has already gone hundreds of times above the table.

00:57:04: And yes, through this mix of misfortune and success these first episodes are obviously almost a rare book because I can only recommend here who would like to be an example from those first episodes must now quickly or else they were best a few months and then the second episode will

00:57:26: also be ready.

00:57:27: Whenever you say something, I feel like I have to secure an example.

00:57:29: For the podcast i already ordered

00:57:31: one and so we are on the safe side.

00:57:36: Very good!

00:57:37: Back again for the book because Dancknett said that he really liked it from the principle of Appreciation Society.

00:57:43: He also said all contributions will be treated equally whether by a famous designer or some unknown fan.

00:57:50: this equality For me, it was such a good assessment and you can't think hierarchically.

00:57:58: And that this also flows into the concept of the book, I find is a very great decision... ...and therefore does not remain in the statement of the previous word but these appreciations are actually pulled through consequently.

00:58:09: It's

00:58:10: really a collective appreciation!

00:58:12: That's the spring point.

00:58:14: There was also the decision in the sense of transparency and authenticity to make small mistakes.

00:58:22: I found this process very exciting too.

00:58:25: Thank God at first, there is a reflection on these errors.

00:58:29: In terms of perfection it certainly comes from his habits but then he has changed a little bit during the process.

00:58:36: The whole system then had to overcome this mistake.

00:58:44: And it was also nice that not only in the form, but also in editing and text, this concept came into being.

00:58:54: That's what you notice

00:58:59: on this book about both forms as well as content really has been subordinated by him.

00:59:07: The book stands for a certain self-evident understanding of us And at the same time, this year in Insider-Wissen for the end of the day it is added that in our bubble there are often the same things without a big message.

00:59:26: to be well explained together.

00:59:29: And finally, the same gift is at all in the studio or at home on a kitchen table when there's such a cooking box.

00:59:36: I think that it's an exciting observation which is very human and fits our society now but still has come back into this

00:59:44: book.

00:59:45: Yes, we will also be close to the answer that Urs Leni, a designer in the field of book design has given us.

00:59:54: I didn't do much at all and just came up with this content layout.

01:00:01: It should be transported by certain circumstances but it is recognized from some audience as well.

01:00:08: The design of the book is definitely close to what you just painted.

01:00:15: Jonas, I think our next trip should be to Japan or London.

01:00:19: Thank you for the flight that made us here!

01:00:22: You're welcome, beautiful.

01:00:25: At least virtually... If you liked this episode, please tell your friend about it.

01:00:35: And if you've heard about Not Only Nice for the first time today, these as well as all other episodes of not only nice are on Apple Podcasts, Spotify and our website, nicht nur schön.ch.

01:01:01: To hear it now is already number twenty-six.

01:01:05: For next

01:01:06: episode we will travel to Frankfurt, not just physically in a conversation.

01:01:12: It's also not about one of the most beautiful Swiss books but rather about Live at the Buchmesse Frankfurt, we will discuss a publication about Print on Demand.

01:01:25: We are talking about how Print and Demand platforms enable an anti-culture of publishing and why for many books it also means that they may not have been available anywhere.